CVL-Caledon Literary Group Transcript for 2020-01-09
Naomi Kritzer — Cat Pictures Please
| 16:57 | Valibrarian Gregg | Hello Hadrian |
| 16:57 | Valibrarian Gregg | Did you get the link to our story? |
| 16:59 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Hello, how are you? Sorry I have leg. Yes, I got the link. |
| 16:59 | Valibrarian Gregg | ty :) |
| 17:00 | Valibrarian Gregg | I am sending out a last minute reminder |
| 17:00 | Valibrarian Gregg | since we have not met for awhile! |
| 17:00 | Valibrarian Gregg | But we should start soon |
| 17:00 | Valibrarian Gregg | Our story is from the perspective of an artificial intelligence being |
| 17:01 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Ah, this is very interesting. I liked the theme. |
| 17:02 | Valibrarian Gregg | AI is always an interesting topic! |
| 17:02 | Valibrarian Gregg | Another book club that i'm in is reading Isaac Asimov's I-robot |
| 17:02 | Valibrarian Gregg | so AI is kind of on my mind! |
| 17:04 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | The idea of generating an awareness is very enigmatic. This is because we do not yet know what consciousness is. |
| 17:04 | Valibrarian Gregg | yes- I recently met an elderly woman who was an early pioneer of AI |
| 17:05 | Valibrarian Gregg | She worked in the 1960s for the military to help identify enemy planes |
| 17:05 | Valibrarian Gregg | and she insisted that AI could NEVER become conscious! |
| 17:05 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | uau |
| 17:06 | Valibrarian Gregg | She said computer programming is limited to step by step algorithmic rules - unlike the human brain |
| 17:06 | Valibrarian Gregg | but science fiction stories are full of robots overtaking us! |
| 17:06 | Valibrarian Gregg | and, I suppose the idea of "the Singularity" is similar- right? |
| 17:07 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | I believe you can. But it is not an AI that will produce awareness. She will come from outside. There are studies that suspect the entire universe is conscious. he sends feedback to autonomous systems, like humans. So you ran an interface to access this feedback. |
| 17:08 | Valibrarian Gregg | interesting studies, indeed- and sometimes the words we use are not precise really... |
| 17:08 | Valibrarian Gregg | the AI pioneer said- there is no clear definition of consciousness! |
| 17:09 | Valibrarian Gregg | perhaps we can agree that all living things are "sentient beings" and nonliving things are not? |
| 17:09 | Valibrarian Gregg | yet all things are made of energy- hence, we can argue! |
| 17:10 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | YES. |
| 17:10 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | If they can produce a complex enough system, it could access a level of consciousness |
| 17:10 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Cannot produce, but can access. |
| 17:10 | Valibrarian Gregg | the logic there seems to be that consciousness is complex development |
| 17:11 | Valibrarian Gregg | but- then I ask- is a person with a very low IQ (or brain damage) NOT conscious? surely not |
| 17:13 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | So. I understand what's access. Some beings may be more useful than others. |
| 17:13 | Valibrarian Gregg | and- the flip side- is a search engine filled with an amazing amount of information (facts and data) capable of consciousness...I think not |
| 17:13 | Valibrarian Gregg | Google is certainly useful! but not conscious |
| 17:14 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | exactly. |
| 17:14 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Consciousness is one level above automatism. |
| 17:15 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | It needs a very complex system to access consciousness. |
| 17:15 | Valibrarian Gregg | So- there are some futurists who believe robots or AI might move up to that level. What do you think? |
| 17:16 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | L think it's possible. However, a level of processing that does not yet exist on the machines is required. |
| 17:17 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | The great philosophical discussion enters the question of the individual soul. For Buddhism, for example, there is no soul. For other traditions yes. |
| 17:17 | Valibrarian Gregg | I lean toward the concept of the soul....without the soul - there can be knowledge (like Google) but no inner "being" |
| 17:18 | Valibrarian Gregg | The 3 laws of robotics apply to our conversation: http://wiki.c2.com/?ThreeLawsOfRobotics |
| 17:20 | Valibrarian Gregg | Humans have struggle to explain what it means to be human (philosophy) and now we struggle to understand what it means to be a robot! |
| 17:20 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | I also like the idea of an individual soul. I think that makes more sense. Already in question: Is a Higgs Boson your only individual yet? When does an individual arise? |
| 17:21 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Yes. Understanding robots is also a process of self-knowledge for us humans. |
| 17:21 | Valibrarian Gregg | oooh quantum physics! mysterious indeed....and the concept of the quantum particle- capable of being both 1 and 0 (two opposite concepts at the same time) |
| 17:22 | Valibrarian GreggValibrarian Gregg is looking up the Higgs Boson particle! | |
| 17:22 | Valibrarian Gregg | In mainstream media the Higgs boson has often been called the "God particle" |
| 17:22 | Valibrarian Gregg | I am reading |
| 17:22 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Yes or double slit experiment, an idea of nonlocality are like weirdest things there are. |
| 17:23 | Valibrarian Gregg | sort of like a Black Hole- hard to even contemplate |
| 17:24 | Valibrarian Gregg | Doesn't that seem to relate (nonlocallity) to being able to teleport like we can here in SL? |
| 17:25 | Valibrarian Gregg | Welcome Wordsmith! |
| 17:25 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | exactly. There is no distance for a particle. She can go to the other side of the universe instantly. |
| 17:25 | Valibrarian Gregg | We have been discussing various concepts about AI- that correspond to the theme of our story |
| 17:25 | Valibrarian Gregg | which led us to Quantum Theory! |
| 17:25 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Sorry Val, got spaced in RL |
| 17:26 | Valibrarian Gregg | oh no problem! |
| 17:26 | Valibrarian Gregg | good to see you! |
| 17:26 | Valibrarian Gregg | The story was interesting-- from the perspective of an AI |
| 17:26 | Valibrarian Gregg | and that stirs up an interesting debate on whether an AI could ever develop consciousness ;) |
| 17:26 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | An unintended AI that wanted to do good |
| 17:27 | Valibrarian Gregg | yes- many sci-fi robots (AI) are quite likable! |
| 17:27 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Rule-based programming, likely no. |
| 17:27 | Valibrarian Gregg | agreed |
| 17:27 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | A huge neural network with simulated neurons, maybe. |
| 17:27 | Valibrarian Gregg | Both Hadrian and I came to agree that the difference between AI and humans could be "the soul" |
| 17:28 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Hallo Wordsmith! |
| 17:28 | Valibrarian Gregg | but it is difficult to define! |
| 17:28 | Valibrarian Gregg | What makes a sentient being? A programmed instrument only spouts back what has been put in....nothing from "a soul" |
| 17:29 | Valibrarian Gregg | although the one in the story wanted to be helpful |
| 17:29 | Valibrarian Gregg | and had "personal preferences" |
| 17:29 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | So, and there is another question. Could a soul be part of a complex AI system? In this case, again it would not be AI to produce consciousness, it would come from outside. |
| 17:29 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | IA* |
| 17:29 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | ability to reflect? |
| 17:30 | Valibrarian Gregg | THAT question is complex since we do not know where a soul comes from or where it exists....some have the vague idea that it is near the heart? I friend of mine says the soul is in every cell of our bodies |
| 17:32 | Valibrarian Gregg | others argue that the soul is in the mind (the nous) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nous maybe? |
| 17:32 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Older traditions say we have more bodies than that. They would be in different atomic patterns. So when a soul incarnates, it accepts the human system. After she dies, she continues with the other bodies. |
| 17:32 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | In general, a soul seems to define a non-physical part of some higher identity. |
| 17:32 | Valibrarian Gregg | outside of us? as in a part of God? or a higher being? |
| 17:33 | Valibrarian Gregg | oh Hadrian...sort of like reincarnation? |
| 17:33 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Seemingly taken to be connected with the physical while the body lives |
| 17:33 | Valibrarian Gregg | and then...after death....to go elsewhere? |
| 17:33 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Older systems being theology Hadrian? |
| 17:34 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | More or less that. It would be as if it were part, but with an individuality. This is not a soul system. No soulless system of individual vocation is not a matter of individuality for matter. |
| 17:35 | Valibrarian Gregg | Sometimes I think there are "mysteries" that we are not meant to understand....but it is fascinating to contemplate them |
| 17:36 | Valibrarian Gregg | AI robots will certainly be useful in our lifetime...already being used as caregivers in Japan I hear |
| 17:36 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | For that matter, we could be players in a simulation |
| 17:36 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Exactly. No individual system would be like reincarnation. But according to some traditions of reincarnation is not a requirement. It works to expand the complexity of being. Like a school. |
| 17:37 | Valibrarian Gregg | hah! like a Twilight Zone episode,,,We are just toys in a doll house |
| 17:37 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | haha |
| 17:38 | Valibrarian Gregg | and- like the quantum particle (qubit) we are both a unique individual and a part of a gigantic universal whole at the same time |
| 17:38 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Exactly. |
| 17:39 | Valibrarian Gregg | that is a metamodern concept....the oscillation of polarities |
| 17:39 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | As a simulation started with a background, we would be unaware if "we" were shutdown at "night" and restarted the next morning. Rather than a divine being, we would likely owe our universe to the equivalent of graduate students. |
| 17:39 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | It is as if a "cosmic conscious" creates individuals to live experiences and to become complex. |
| 17:40 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | According to some traditions, we are off at night. We get out of the physical body. Have you heard of astral projection? |
| 17:40 | Valibrarian Gregg | Our ability to create these hypotheses illustrates something....something bigger than us- don't you think? |
| 17:41 | Valibrarian Gregg | /me is looking up astral projection (out of body experience) |
| 17:41 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Also part of Theology |
| 17:41 | Valibrarian Gregg | I have not heard it put with that term |
| 17:42 | Valibrarian Gregg | pseudoscience |
| 17:42 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Yes. Secondd life is a tip for "real simulation". A life within life. We're here, but there is no bone plan. Only in this plane of reality. At RL It would be more or less the same. |
| 17:42 | Valibrarian Gregg | Article says "There is no scientific evidence that there is a consciousness or soul which is separate from normal neural activity or that one can consciously leave the body and make observations"--- but all know people who would argue that! |
| 17:43 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | My bad. Theosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy |
| 17:43 | Valibrarian Gregg | Being in SL does tend to make one contemplate reality! |
| 17:44 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | "Pseudoscience" is a term often used when people do not understand how certain things work. |
| 17:44 | Valibrarian Gregg | The first few weeks sort of blew my mind and I saw the real world differently. It is like being inside a metaphor |
| 17:44 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | For classical physics, quantum physics has already been pseudoscience. haha. |
| 17:44 | Valibrarian Gregg | true Hadrian! and even postivism within scientific fields sometimes changes! |
| 17:45 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Do you know the myth of Plato's cave? |
| 17:46 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | But pseudoscience is also a term applied when scientific language is injected into something that is not scientific. |
| 17:46 | Valibrarian Gregg | As I librarian, I seek to share all perspectives and sides to ideas. There are many paths- but you must pick one or you will head nowhere. (Yet not force your path on others) |
| 17:47 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Yes true. There's a lot of nonsense out there. You need to know filter. |
| 17:47 | Valibrarian Gregg | yes- Plato's cave is sort of like finding out we really are in the episode of the Twilight Zone dollhouse! |
| 17:47 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Classical physics is known to be an approximation, that fails in the very small and very fast domains. |
| 17:48 | Valibrarian Gregg | Respecting the experts in science is important- and balancing that respect with a willingness to take risks and challenge ideas- don't you think? |
| 17:50 | Valibrarian Gregg | I read a book last year (The Death of Expertise) that shared our Do It Yourself culture is making us lose respect for experts in all areas. (We are all photographers on our phones....and everyone is a researcher on Google- yikes) |
| 17:50 | Valibrarian Gregg | I am pretty fascinated with quantum physics! so hard to wrap your head around |
| 17:51 | Valibrarian Gregg | and AI- even little kids are telling Alexa what songs to play at home! |
| 17:51 | Valibrarian Gregg | so AI is already here! |
| 17:52 | Valibrarian Gregg | (and listening......?) |
| 17:52 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | The scientific method is only one method. It works with certain safety margins. Basically, cut out a real idae to understand a small part. That is. You piratically ignore the rest of the universe to bestow a part of it. In this sense, science is limited. |
| 17:52 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Yes, in a reactive manner |
| 17:52 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | reality* |
| 17:52 | Valibrarian Gregg | absolutely....science is limited |
| 17:53 | Valibrarian Gregg | poetry is a higher form ;) |
| 17:53 | Valibrarian Gregg | but it takes opposites to make a whole |
| 17:54 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Although science is no longer limited to reductionism since we can model interactions and thus emergent phenomena. |
| 17:54 | Valibrarian Gregg | I heard that a robot can write music....programmed to mathematically create pleasing melodies--- but that is kind of unnerving- soulless? |
| 17:55 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | In the late 19th century, it was said that there was nothing more to be discovered by science. Ten years later, quantum physics appeared and turned science upside down. |
| 17:55 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Rule based on patterns. |
| 17:55 | Valibrarian Gregg | right! We learn in a constant "spiral" just like the golden number--- returning again and again yet ever new |
| 17:55 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | Yes! Poetry transcends all physicality. I love poetry! |
| 17:55 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Yes and no. Classical physics is still a good approximation for much of everyday life. |
| 17:56 | Valibrarian Gregg | I'd like to conduct research shared in poetic form :) |
| 17:56 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Some might consider math to be poetic. ;) |
| 17:57 | Valibrarian Gregg | true the balance of algebra is poetic |
| 17:57 | Valibrarian Gregg | and I did once write a poem with html code in it! that was fun |
| 17:57 | Valibrarian Gregg | and I hear calculus is poetic (or maybe philosophical) I don't know bc I never got that far!! |
| 17:58 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | To <link /> or not to <link /> |
| 17:58 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | "To see a World in a Grain of Sand And a Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour" |
| 17:58 | Valibrarian Gregg | YEAH love it! |
| 17:58 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | This sums up the whole philosophy ever created! |
| 17:59 | Valibrarian Gregg | that is the answer>> |
| 17:59 | Valibrarian Gregg | Great discussion! |
| 17:59 | Valibrarian Gregg | So glad you could come Hadrian |
| 17:59 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | great! |
| 17:59 | Valibrarian Gregg | I hope you can come again next month |
| 17:59 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Val, can you send me your chat log for before I arrived? |
| 17:59 | Valibrarian Gregg | Thurs 2/13/2020 |
| 18:00 | Valibrarian Gregg | yes- I will drop you the log Wordsmith |
| 18:00 | Valibrarian Gregg | and maybe we can do another read aloud soon? |
| 18:00 | Valibrarian Gregg | those are fun! |
| 18:00 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | Yep, I'll look for something. |
| 18:01 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | I will surely come. |
| 18:01 | Valibrarian Gregg | wonderful! |
| 18:01 | Valibrarian Gregg | nice to meet you |
| 18:01 | Valibrarian Gregg | see you both then! |
| 18:01 | Valibrarian Gregg | and here is the CVL calendar: |
| 18:01 | Wordsmith Jarvinen | tc |
| 18:01 | Valibrarian Gregg | https://communityvirtuallibrary.org/events/ |
| 18:01 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | I will surely come. |
| 18:01 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | leg |
| 18:02 | Hadrian Scottini (hadrianscottini) | nice too meet you too |
| 18:02 | Valibrarian Gregg | goodnight to you both |